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Richard Helppie
Hello, welcome to The Common Bridge. I'm sad that we're doing this special edition Common Bridge tonight because we faced another horrible tragedy in America with the deaths of 14 little children in Texas, and at least one adult. All the details are not clear as we're making this recording on the night of the shooting. This is horrible. It's something that doesn't have to happen in our country and it's something that our government needs to address. We are honored and privileged to have back with us today returning guest, Justin Higgins. Mr. Higgins has spent time working for both Republicans and Democrats. He has a very keen understanding of how legislation is made. I know when he was on our show several months ago, there were terms of art and processes that I had frankly never heard of that seemed like second nature to him. So in the next 30 minutes or so, we want to talk a little bit about the tragedy, and why do we keep having them, and why did the same characters seem to be saying the same things over and over and then, oh my God, here it comes again. So Justin, thanks for for pulling your evening together to be with us here under these really bad circumstances.
Justin Higgins
Richard, thank you for having me. These are terrible circumstances - obviously today's [was] children; a week or two ago [it] was a racist shooting in Buffalo. Just feels like one after the other. This thing keeps happening and in 2020 20,000 US people died from gun violence alone in that year.
Richard Helppie
Indeed. And without getting into the statistics, I think the statistics still hold that two thirds of gun deaths are suicides. What we need to talk about is this senseless violence that doesn't bring anything but heartache. We've had Boulder, Colorado; prior to that Parkland School in Parkland, Florida; we've had Oxford Michigan; this is reaching to the very corners of our country. And it doesn't seem like it's going to stop, in fact, it just feels like a lot of momentum. Now Justin, I'm not the sophisticated legislative guy that you are. And, as you know, the brand on The Common Bridge is to be fiercely nonpartisan. I have floated a solution to firearms; it's not perfect but I've not found anybody that has said we absolutely won't do that, except for two types of people, one on each extreme; one type over here and one type over there. Your take on the situation we're in today? Is it mental health? Is it the gun? Is it the gun laws? What's going on here that's causing this carnage?
Justin Higgins
Well, Richard, it's all of the above. But anybody who hides behind the mental health issue is not being honest, or they're just ignorant because the US - the only difference between the US and other countries around the world - isn't the mental health of our citizens. It's the fact that guns have proliferated throughout the nation. We have 323 million people, there's 393 million guns as of 2020. And we are the only nation that has the individual right to carry arms, and also the only nation with these mass shootings. So I would argue that it's a combination of everything. But these mass shootings that we're talking about, probably mental health is a large factor.
Richard Helppie
So other countries have taken the innovative approach of keeping firearms out of the hands of people with a mental illness. It seems like we could have come up with that as an answer someplace.
Justin Higgins
They tried. (Rich Helppie: Yeah, indeed. [Cross talk]) Sorry. Go ahead.
Richard Helppie
I did a little informal survey at one time. And if I can put you on the spot, I'm going to, and if you'd rather not, don't. But here's my survey; it was nonscientific. If I put a firearm in your hand, would you shoot somebody with it?
Justin Higgins
Probably not. If nobody tried to break into my house and kill me, then I probably wouldn't shoot anybody with a firearm. But I can't guarantee you that - and I have no mental health issues - but I can't guarantee you that if there was a firearm in my house, that there wouldn't be an increased risk of an accidental shooting. And I couldn't guarantee you that, if I got really depressed at some point and did have something awful happened in my life, that just because a firearm was there, I wouldn't be statistically more likely to commit suicide.
Richard Helppie
But as you sit here today, you don't think you would shoot somebody? And why not?
Justin Higgins
I have no desire to shoot anybody. It's pretty simple, right?
Richard Helppie
Well, that was 100% of the people that responded to my survey, which was not scientific, okay, I didn't go get sample sizes. But basically, everybody said, look, I just couldn't, or they said, hey, if I had to protect myself; nobody was as nuanced as your response. But [at] a future date some things could change and if the lethal force was available, that might make a difference. I think that's a fair point and something we need to consider; the availability of that weaponry. Justin, I know you worked for pro-gun, the Republicans, and you've worked on the other side of the aisle. What kind of legislation have you seen put forth and what the heck happens to it?
Justin Higgins
For starters, I think that everybody listening to this show needs to understand that Americans only received the individual right to carry a firearm in 2008. And that was based on a five-four GOP led decision in the Supreme Court called Heller. So we haven't had this right for hundreds of years. States used to be able to ban it, like what's going to happen with abortion. So it's a relatively new phenomenon. When I was in office, working for a member of Congress - it was right after Sandy Hook - he was a Republican from Kansas and one piece of legislation - actually, it was an executive order by President Obama - that was being floated was Red Flag laws, Richard. So that is something that is supported by 85% of Americans and that's even when you explain to them what it is. What is a Red Flag law? So a Red Flag law is a family member, a member of the law enforcement, or a doctor, for example - there are a few others - can say that this kid is mentally unwell, and they can petition a court for that court to take away a firearm. It's not only, Richard, for people like the mass shooter today, but it's for folks with Alzheimer's disease or dementia that sleep with a gun in their bed; they can get confused, killed their spouse because they think it's an intruder. So it's a very fundamental thing where it's somebody who cannot mentally function in society should not have the ability to kill other people. President Obama, I don't think went through with the Red Flag laws. There was talk in 2019 to go ahead and pass these laws but there was not enough Republican support in the US Senate to do so. So Democrats universally were supporting Red Flag laws, at the minimum; to prevent guns from the Buffalo shooter, from the shooter today, from the shooter in Sandy Hook. But on the other side of the aisle, Republicans were not willing to go along with it. And the reason is, when you don't have a filibuster proof majority - even if you control the US House and the US Senate, like Democrats do now - you can't get anything that's non-budgetary through the Senate. So unless you have support from Republicans - which they don't, you need 60 votes in the Senate - then you can't do anything alone.
Richard Helppie
Okay, a quick question here too, because - and I don't know if this maneuver has a name - but it's the phenomena of knowing that the law is not going to pass. So I can either vote for it or against it to go back to my constituents and say, hey, that's my vote, we didn't win that one. Any inkling, like a senator from a conservative state, like Joe Manchin, could he vote in favor of Red Flag laws and then go to his constituency and say, we didn't get it. Or someone from a liberal state saying, look, we voted in favor of that but we didn't get it. Like, Vermont has some very loose gun laws, by way of example, which surprises people.
Justin Higgins
Well, Vermont doesn't really have loose gun laws, because if we're looking at the Red Flag law as of 2021, every single Democrat controlled state - including Vermont, with their Democratic legislature - has passed a Red Flag law and only one Republican state has it, and that's Florida. So when it comes to Red Flag laws, this is really not a both sides issue. It's very clear that the Democrats are trying to pass it. But to your question, that's called a "messaging" piece of legislation or a "show vote". And that really does not happen with - at least in this instance - with these specific gun laws. You may have Democrats vote in favor of a gun law and they may not think it goes far enough, but they think it is a step in the right direction. But specifically when it comes to gun legislation, you have folks like Joe Manchin, on the front lines negotiating in good faith with Republicans, and he's the one actually setting the terms for the Democrats. We can get into background checks, but Joe Manchin doesn't even support universal background checks.
Richard Helppie
So let me ask you this on the Red Flag laws. Was there a chief objection or set of objections that the Republicans made about the law? (Justin Higgins: Yes.) What were the reasons they didn't like it?
Justin Higgins
So this was the same when I was in the House working for, again, a very pro-gun law guy on gun laws. The objection was this abstract, slippery slope mechanism, which I think is really nefarious and not honest. They were basically saying that if we pass Red Flag laws, at some point, the Federal government will come into your house and take your guns, even if you aren't mentally ill. So it was this type of fairy tale that was sold to the Republican base consistently; that by trying to keep guns out of the hands of folks that are mentally ill and want to go shoot up schools, that would eventually turn into the big, bad government and big, bad Democrats coming into your bedrooms and into your homes and taking your guns. There's just no proof of that and that's not how the laws are set up.
Richard Helppie
Was there a way for someone that got on the Red Flag list to come off the Red Flag list?
Justin Higgins
Well, of course, you would have to...first, the judge would have to say, yes, we agree with this petition. So it's not just a mental health provider. It's not just a police officer. It's not just a mad spouse; for example, you piss off your spouse, she wants to take away your guns? No, it has to go through an independent third party, which is the independent court system of the United States. And if you're in a red state, there's a good chance that it's a conservative leaning judge determining whether or not you get to keep that weapon. And then of course, there were ways that you can petition to get off the list; go to, for example, psychology, psychiatry, get checks, go through all of these hurdles, complete a certain time period, and then you can petition to be let off the list, which of course, the judge would then have to go through and make that decision.
Richard Helppie
Can you remind me, was it the George W. Bush administration or the Obama administration; for a brief period of time they came up with something that I thought was pretty clever. They said if you were on government assistance for mental health issues, you were also going to be flagged in the firearm purchase background system. It was only in place a short period of time. Do you remember which of those administrations did that?
Justin Higgins
I do not. I would assume, because I have a pretty comprehensive understanding of the Obama administration, it might have been the Bush administration, but again, I don't know.
Richard Helppie
I just thought that was like, look, if you're going to your government and saying you need support for mental health, you're disabled because of a mental health issue and it's one of these diagnoses, we pretty much don't want you going into the gun store to get that. Now, look, the Red Flag laws, I think with some reform, and some careful handling - you could put a Guardian ad Litem system in - it's going to be really difficult to do without background checks because you don't know where the guns are or how many there are, quite frankly.
Justin Higgins
[Cross talk] next problem.
Richard Helppie
I want to, if I may - and I know you've indulged me on this before - but just one more time, if you would, please. I had this notion called graduated licensing and here's the fundamental thought; that a 16 year old gets their driver's license, and we say, oh, you can drive? There's a semi out there, just jump in it and go; yeah, it's two bottomed, it weighs tons, and it's carrying a big load, but you got a driver's license. We don't do that. When a person learns to fly an airplane, and with the federal, with FAA - with the F standing for Federal Aviation Administration - they say, before you can fly that airplane, you've got to have so many hours with an instructor; you've got to have a physical by a doctor, which includes a mental health screening; you're allowed to fly during the daytime under good weather conditions; and you can fly certain kinds of aircraft. In other words, you can't jump into a 757 and go, because you're not qualified. Nobody thinks you're qualified. Fireworks is another great example, because they've got storage requirements. But here's what we do for guns; oh, you're 18? Okay, you're not on the background checklist because everything you did was as a juvenile, so nothing's in the adult criminal record. And on your 18th birthday, you walk into a gun store, you buy an automatic rifle or a semi-automatic rifle, you buy 1,000 rounds of ammunition and you walk out. Who doesn't think that's crazy?
Justin Higgins
A lot of Republicans don't, Richard, in the US Senate.
Richard Helppie
So here's what I'm saying. Let's go to the Republicans and say, look, you wouldn't want that happening in your town. Wouldn't it make more sense to say look, you turn 18, we have a second amendment - well regulated, it says right to keep and bear arms - you're going to have the right to keep and bear arms and we're going to be subject to regulation. So your first firearm can be a revolver with a limited capacity, a limited caliber, and you've got to be tested, you've got to be evaluated, you got to show you can handle it. And then, just like flying an airplane, you can come back after a period of months [for] more education, more observation by an instructor, test out; maybe you can move up to a semi-automatic handgun - and I'm staying with the handgun, but could also bring along shotguns and hunting rifles and the like - so by the time somebody got to the point of getting a semi-automatic weapon that can cause great destruction, number one, they'd have been delayed; number two, they've been observed for a long period of time. I went over a lot of the last shootings. So [in] Boulder, Colorado, graduated licensing would have stopped [it]; at Parkland [it] would have stopped it; Oxford, Michigan [it] would have stopped it. Almost all of the shootings would have not happened with a graduated licensing program in place. Now, Sandy Hook, because the perpetrator killed his mother, who had properly stored firearms, and took those [it] probably wouldn't have stopped that, but would have stopped so many of them. So I'm wondering, why can't the politicians that keep coming to loggerheads on the way they're going, why can't they go in a different direction and try to come up with a different answer?
Justin Higgins
Well, because Richard, I think you hit the problem; the nail on the head, originally - you would need to have a background check in place to do that. Right now only 78% of guns purchased have background checks. It's actually really simple. The loopholes are this. If you're not a licensed arms dealer, you do not have to provide a background check on anybody buying your gun. So that is gun shows; that is any gun bought over the internet, you could sell it to a stranger as long as you're not a licensed gun owner and then that is private person to person. So to institute your graduated licensing approach, which sounds very common sense based - I'd quibble about whether a handgun should be first - but you're not going to get that done because in 2013, Joe Manchin - after Sandy Hook - led an approach to get - not universal background checks, so not on everything that I just mentioned - but only on online sales and at gun shows and he only got four Republicans to vote with him. So there were all the Democrats and then four Republicans. So that is to say they couldn't break the filibuster. They tried again, when Biden got into office, and I think he had two Republicans who were willing to vote with him; Senator Pat Toomey from Pennsylvania, and then Senator Collins from Maine. So again, it's really simple, it's always been GOP Supreme Court justices. There's a massive gun case coming up, which probably, Richard, would take away, eventually, your Federal right to regulate these firearms. But the Supreme Court case, which is Bruin versus US Pistol, is going to take away the right for states to regulate concealed carry. So everybody is going to be able to carry a gun, wherever you are, because of this GOP court. But that's a long winded way of saying there is no support in the US Senate to have GOP senators vote on basic background checks, not universal [background checks]. So for that to happen, you'd need to have the Democrats take control, you'd need them to remove the filibuster, and then act unilaterally because this is not a both sides issue.
Richard Helppie
That's the mechanics of it. But look, I don't know if you've ever seen the background check form? There are nine questions on it. You know what the ninth question is? [Justin Higgins: What's that?) Are you a fugitive from justice? Okay, I mean, that's now...and again, they run it through the system. But look, why background checks, I think, are a good idea, the Parkland shooter, because he had just turned 18, had an extensive juvenile record of mental health issues and extensive record of violence. He goes in, they background check him; guess what, nothing's there and he walks out with a very powerful weapon. The Oxford, Michigan, okay, a clear violation of the law that...the mother, who bought the gun, would have had to be qualified on the weapon, would have to demonstrate...under graduated license, you have to demonstrate that you've got proper storage for it, pass a written test on storage. How do you keep it secure, away from people that shouldn't have it and such? And that one wouldn't have happened. Boulder, same thing. And just because of time, I will use the three examples, but it works in most of the cases. Because what I'm saying would be that the impetuous person can't get their hands on a firearm; if they do have a mental problem, they're going to be observed, and that there are storage requirements. And again, to your point, there should be background checks, but I think it should be beefed up a little bit.
Justin Higgins
But Richard - and I think it should go maybe even further than what you're saying - but what you're saying is a complete non-starter, not to get into the mechanics of things. But you have one political party who doesn't want anything. And you have one political party putting justices on the Supreme Court that are going to take away states rights to regulate firearms. So this is not a both sides issue. You could say the Democrats aren't going far enough and I may agree with you. But when you don't have the ability, because the GOP Senate doesn't want you to be a mother and say, my son owns this gun, but he's a paranoid schizophrenic, can you please take this gun away from him? And then the GOP says, no, we're not going to do that. Then you have all of these mentally ill people, that you just mentioned, go and commit these shootings. It's one side of the aisle that is preventing Federal legislation from being passed that would allow for these guns to be taken away by teachers, doctors, law enforcement officials. They don't even want to keep them out of the hands of the people that are shooting up these schools. They do hide behind mental health, but they're not doing anything to fix it.
Richard Helppie
Justin, when I look at some of the statistical data, in some of the strictest gun control areas: City of Chicago, City of New York, major cities in California; they have all these laws, and you know the carnage and the statistics coming out of Chicago, so I think it's beyond a Democrat/Republican mental health problem. We have a cultural issue. Can we at least agree that there's no progress being made.
Justin Higgins
No, it is a cultural issue. I do agree with that. But if we're looking at progress, which is legislation, then we can't blame both sides. It's not only dishonest, it's disingenuous, and it actually prevents a solution from being had because then you just have people see this problem of mass shooting and then they say, oh, all of these politicians are bad. None of them want to fix it. That's not the case. (Rich Helppie: Well, here's what we're not getting...) you have Democrats actively trying to fix the problem, and you have Republicans preventing it. So you're saying that there aren't any solutions, there isn't any progress and I'm telling you why there is no progress. And then you're saying, well, it's both sides and I just can't get behind that.
Richard Helppie
`I think it's structural, alright. And the Republicans, if they behave as you portray, (Justin Higgins: Just look it up, they do behave that way.) they can only get away with that if there's no accountability. And if the Democrats' ideas are so good and so well reasoned, and they're presenting them, and they're being reported accurately, fairly and completely, then those ideas should be implemented. And Justin, I think you and I have had more discussion in this 15-20 minutes that we've been on, about the content of the legislation, because you and I spent a lot of time on Twitter this afternoon and it was the same old mudslinging. The Republican senators were; we have prayers for the victims, we have praise for the first responders, and you're going and? Crickets. And the Democrats, with a clear opportunity to say, hey, if our bill that would have required this firearm to be registered, or the background check to be done, would have stopped it, but they don't say that; they just say Republicans are bad. So most people, that's what they hear. They hear prayers and praise for responders; hey, the all these other guys are awful, and nothing changes and they throw up their hands. So how do we break this log jam? Where does the change come from? Because I don't want to be having another conversation like this tomorrow or ten years from now.
Justin Higgins
You're going to because it...so, I disagree with your premise. The Democrats are clearly messaging on this, you have senators on the Democratic side who are calling a spade, a spade, or saying one plus one equals two. The reason why solutions aren't advancing is because of the Republican Party. You have it resonating with the American public: I've given you two statistics; universal background checks, which is further than Democrats want to go in Red Flag laws are supported by 85% of the public. So...hold on...here's why...[cross talk] Here's the thing, though, Richard...
Richard Helppie
Would a Red Flag law have prevented what occurred in Texas today?
Justin Higgins
I don't know. I would assume so. If this person is mentally ill, and he has a history of being mentally ill, and he's seeing a psychologist, and that psychologist says this person shouldn't own a gun, then that psychologist could have went to law enforcement and prevented it. Same thing in Buffalo. But my point is this, Richard, it's really simple. You're like, well, if the Democrats are so clear with how they're presenting their ideas, why isn't it getting through? Because voters prioritize the issues that they vote on. When it comes down to the day, the voters, they all agree that this needs to be done. The reason why they're not voting these people out is because they're not putting that over their other priorities. The Republicans understand that. So what they're going to do is they're going to keep doing the absolute bare minimum to fire up their base voters - the most extreme on the right - so that they can get people to come out and vote for them. So that's the honest to God's truth of what's happening. A solution...(Rich Helppie: I'm going to agree...) is to strongly limit people who can have guns; that's the solution.
Richard Helppie
Well, look, there's 339 million guns out there and as a guy that's an engineer, like okay, how are we going to get rid of those 339 million...
Justin Higgins
Mandatory buybacks, like other countries have done.
Richard Helppie
There are 339 million, you're not going to get them back. I'm more interested in keeping them out of the hands...and Buffalo, talked with a friend last week [who] says nobody should have an assault rifle. And I'm like, you don't need an assault rifle to do what this guy did and the guy down in Texas just proved that case.
Justin Higgins
But the guy had an assault rifle, so he was able to kill more people. He had military grade body armor. The reason why you should ban an assault rifle is because it would limit the ability to kill these innocent women and children in the schools. But again, Republicans refused to ban assault rifles.
Richard Helppie
It was my understanding, in Texas today, a handgun was the weapon. Last week, with Buffalo, it was we have to get rid of these assault rifles. I'm saying it doesn't matter what gun it is; it's the gun in the wrong hand that can create the carnage.
Justin Higgins
But even that I have to disagree with because no solution is going to be - and I hate to use this word - a silver bullet. What you can do is you can take small steps and you can mitigate the harm from these guns. So what I would argue is, very succinctly, that if you reduce the amount of capacity to kill people with one weapon, that's probably going to reduce the scope and scale of these mass shootings. And eventually, you can then begin to work on other issues to limit shootings in general. But you need both parties to tango, and Republicans are unwilling to do anything.
Richard Helppie
You can get 16 rounds in a standard magazine for a nine millimeter and you might get 20 rounds or 30 rounds in a standard magazine for an AR 15. Both of them are horribly deadly, both of them can create a lot of carnage and they need to be kept out of the wrong place. So where I would differ with you is this; I looked at, we need to shut it off on the front end. We need to quit selling people guns because they walk into a gun store and buy the thing and they can answer a question that says, are you a fugitive from justice? No, I am not.
Justin Higgins
It goes through a database, though, too.
Richard Helppie
It does. But fake ID...I talked to a fellow with the DHS, I said, what's that even there for? He goes that's just so that we can add to the charges later if we need to. And so I asked him, I said, did anybody ever check that - yes, I am a fugitive from justice - and then say, well, I didn't want to lie on the form. And he didn't know how many cases [were] like that. So I'm more about let's slow down the proliferation of guns on the front end of the pipeline, and keep them out of people's hands while preserving their Second Amendment rights, which is well regulated. As you qualify - just as you would under so many different things - you can be trusted with something that you can properly operate and store and you're not a threat to others. That ought to be pretty easy. And then, to your point, in the...
Justin Higgins
I don't...you said we disagree. I don't disagree with that. I'm telling you why that is delusional. Because you have one political party who is not willing to do anything on guns. I agree totally with you.
Richard Helppie
Well, let's stipulate that, just for argument's sake, that they're not willing to do anything. (Justin Higgins: They aren't.) What would be...so that's an obstacle. Now let me tell you, when I ran businesses and someone would come back to me and go, well, this didn't work, but it was because of Justin over there. I'm like, okay, I'd tell him, I'm going to go to the client and tell them, we didn't deliver the service, we were late and we were over budget. But you're good, okay? And they'd look at me like, well, no. So you've got to find a way to get with Justin, so that we give the client what they need. Now, if we still believe - which sometimes I question it - that (the customers are the American people) the American people are not getting what they need from their government. They're not getting what they need from reporting sources. If I was the president of the United States, I would grab them by the scruff of the neck, take them up to Camp David and say, guys, we're not leaving here without this. And, if you, Mitch McConnell, are going to foot drag on this, I'm walking out in front of that press, and I'm going to put up a PowerPoint about what you're blocking and you can face the midterms like that. But we're not taking that forceful leadership because - whether it's one side or the other on this issue - the loser is the American people who today are still at risk for mentally ill people doing horrible things. That's a fact.
Justin Higgins
But it's not...Joe Biden doesn't have a magic wand where he can make people vote the way he wants them to vote. It would do absolutely nothing and might do more harm than good for him to bring them up there, negotiate - nothing's going to happen if they negotiate - and then call in the press and call them all evil. The same thing would happen as what happened with the voting laws and you'd have people chanting, let's go Brandon, calling him senile. (Rich Helppie: you don't know that.) This is the president of United States, we do know that. Richard, this is an empirical fact: for nine years since 2013, you've had good faith efforts, by people like Joe Manchin, negotiating behind the scenes trying to find a solution to this when this happens in blue states like Connecticut, or red states like Florida and Texas, and the Republican Party has refused to do anything. This is not a both sides issue. Claiming [that] it is a both sides issue is disingenuous.
Richard Helppie
You're not hearing me, okay? What I'm saying is this: I'm unconcerned about which end of the boat the hole's in. I'm making the case here, or you're making the case, that the government isn't delivering. You have your set of reasons for it and I accept them, you're an expert in your field. And I'm looking at it and going okay, that's interesting but it's not that important. How do we address that?
Justin Higgins
Vote for more Democrats so they remove the filibuster and then they pass these gun laws, like you said, your graduated licensing; that's the solution. The GOP is not going to change.
Richard Helppie
Right. And what would make the GOP change is fear of losing elections if they don't do something like a graduated licensing.
Justin Higgins
But the public does not prioritize gun laws with their votes.
Richard Helppie
So when Bernie Sanders, who I greatly admire, was running for president and he had...I didn't agree with a lot of his policy solutions, but I sure agreed with his agenda. And I do recall one time that they asked him, if you couldn't get it through, would you do it by executive order? And in his way; of course not, he said he would take the case to the American people. And I've been around long enough to see presidents do that. I think about the conduct of Richard Nixon and John Kennedy after Nixon's defeat in the 1960 presidential election, and they put it behind them to work for the good of the country. I think about the things that Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill were able to do. I think about Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich sitting down and saying, hey, let's make this happen. And it just seems to me that we're not even getting the courtesy of let's bring the congressional leadership up from the hill, let's have a discussion. Because, to your point, we're all too comfortable with our base. That extreme base is putting us on opposite sides of a chasm. We've got to do something different.
Justin Higgins
Yet, Richard it...so we are so polarized right now, it would not help, it would not help get a solution if you brought Republicans up and you saw them negotiating with Joe Biden and then they passed a gun law that Joe Biden wanted, because these Republicans would lose support from their base. So what Joe Biden did was, earlier in the year - and I mentioned this earlier - he authorized Joe Manchin to negotiate with Pat Toomey, a Republican senator from Pennsylvania, to close just online gun sales and gun show sales. And Joe Manchin tried his hardest, tried, like, darn tried. He's been trying for nine years. But he couldn't get that done because no Republicans would support it, and they could not break the filibuster. So you're saying...
Richard Helppie
Which of the mass shootings would have been stopped by stopping online gun sales?
Justin Higgins
Again, though, Richard, you're you're asking for a silver bullet. I'm telling you...
Richard Helppie
What I'm saying, look, the last person that murdered somebody high profile with a mail order rifle was Lee Harvey Oswald.
Justin Higgins
This is ridiculous, though. You're advocating for a completely...(Rich Helppie: I want, I want a solution...) you're advocating for a solution that will never happen. I'm telling you, the solution will never happen. I'm giving you an example of the lowest hanging fruit. I'm telling you...(Rich Helppie: I'm more, I'm more optimistic.) but I'm telling you how government works. I'm telling you what the GOP is doing.
Richard Helppie
You're telling me how it doesn't work because we are still... because that's a normal question. It's like, if we had a ban on online sales, then today's tragedy wouldn't have occurred. That would be powerful, but nobody's making that argument.
Justin Higgins
Because Richard, we can't get that. Again, I'm trying to give you an example of something that every single American, 85% of Americans, agree with, and I'm trying to tell you why it won't happen. And from that example, which all Americans agree with, I'm trying to tell you that your solution, which is much more further down the line, which not as many Americans agree on, will never happen because you don't have two parties willing to work together. You have the Democratic Party that would be willing to do this, but you will never have the Republican Party do this. So the solution...we have a hole in the boat, the hole in the boat is the GOP does not care about these kids getting gunned down in schools. The solution to that hole in the boat is voting for more Democrats so they can remove the filibuster and then pass your graduated licensing; you cannot get that done with the GOP because they don't care.
Richard Helppie
I understand the vilification, and look, had the Democrats acquitted themselves better when they came into power, instead of a lot of their posturing and investigating...
Justin Higgins
This was the first thing that Joe Manchin worked on, Richard. This is not like any posturing. This was the first thing he tried to get done.
Richard Helppie
This is...I'm not making a partisan argument and you're saying, if only our side could win.
Justin Higgins
This is a factual argument. This is the fact...(Rich Helppie: No it's not, it's an opinion.) No, no, no, no, no, I'm telling you, I have examples of these laws, and I have the way the votes went. These are the facts. I'm giving you specific rules that were voted on.
Richard Helppie
Which bill that was defeated, would have stopped which shooting?
Justin Higgins
A Red Flag law bill probably would have stopped every single shooting if the parents or a teacher or a health care provider, who knew somebody was mentally ill and had a gun, went to law enforcement. But these didn't exist everywhere, and you don't have everybody reporting it; all that you can do is limit the shootings, and then work to limit them as much as you can. Until there are no guns, you're always going to have shootings in America. So you're asking for a silver bullet, and there is no silver bullet.
Richard Helppie
We agree on the kernel of the issue. It's a mentally unwell person with a firearm in their hand. You just said that's what the Red Flag law is, hey, this guy shouldn't have a firearm in his hand, because he's not stable and there should be a way to get the gun out of his hands. I don't think anybody has a dispute with that. I'm coming at it from the other side saying, prove to me, before we put one in your hand, that this is a low risk. These are common sense things that we could be doing. What we need to do, like anything else, is work through, why isn't this happening?
Justin Higgins
I agree with you. It's not happening because one party refuses your solution. They won't even do a half measure; you're calling for a three quarters measure.
Richard Helppie
Let me just tell you in my...I've been at this now for over three years and here's been my experience. Most people, when I talk to them about graduated licensing go, you know, that's something I could live with. I do have extremists on one side saying you can't tell me what gun I can buy, what gun I can't buy. I get that. I get them on the other side saying, well, I don't think anybody should have a gun, I don't think we should have that at all. Well, okay, good luck with that - 339 million guns. So we have to acknowledge that there are people out there with differences and appeal to the fundamental core issue. A mentally unstable person shouldn't have a firearm, period. And now, what do we do? Red Flag law? I agree with. You like graduated licensing? (Justin Higgins: Sure. I agree with that. That's fine.) Right. And so this is my point, Justin, the answer can't be it's too hard to make that happen because our government's dysfunctional. If it's still our government, it's their job. If you and I can sit here and agree [on] those two things, I mean, it'd be a better country; we'd be at less risk. But the guys we hired to do that job, just don't do it.
Justin Higgins
Well, on the gun issue specifically, it's not the guys and girls that we hire, it's the Republican Party. It's really clear. (Rich Helppie: Okay, any final thoughts?) In Oklahoma, that Red legislature passed a law saying you can never pass a Red Flag law in the state of Oklahoma. That's because of the opposition to this. And so my last thoughts are, I agree, graduated gun licensing, Red Flag laws; I don't care how we approach it, I just want to see progress on this issue. We will never see progress with the current Republican Party as it's constituted, unless the Democrats win enough seats to eliminate the filibuster and make progress that way.
Richard Helppie
Alright, well good. My final thought is, I don't recall any country that's thrived with a one party system. And I see states from Oklahoma to California that aren't doing that well with one party.
Justin Higgins
We were doing just fine under FDR when we had one party in major control.
Richard Helppie
Look, he did a good job steering us from the Depression and through the end of a really brutal war. There are a lot of historical parallels going on with that (Justin Higgins: Social Security and...) We're going to have some people on, talking to us from Europe, about what they're seeing over there with NATO and that type of thing. I hope you join us for that. Justin, again, I appreciate you rallying and providing your expertise. Keep up the good fight. And I hope that you and I get a chance to interact and see each other again on The Common Bridge.
Justin Higgins
Yes, thank you.
Richard Helppie
Alright. Thanks so much.
Transcribed by Cynthia Silveri
Another massacre and those elected do nothing.