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Richard Helppie
Well, hello, welcome to The Common Bridge. I'm your host, Richard Helppie. We're going to have some fun today because it is the pinnacle of college football season. Our guest today is John U. Bacon; he is an American journalist, he has authored books on sports and business, he's a sports commentator on TV and radio. He is a proud alum of the University of Michigan, who will be playing a game in just four short days after this airs. He has extensive background in appearing on shows as diverse as NPR, ESPN, and Michigan Radio - all about sports. So we're here to talk about some college ball today. John, welcome to The Common Bridge. Glad you're with us.
John U. Bacon
Thank you. Good to be here, Rich.
Richard Helppie
You've been around this block a few times. I'm a big fan of college football; everybody - New Year's Day - don't bother me. I'm going to be spending quality time with my remote control glued to a chair for as long as humanly possible. But things have changed; got 40 some bowl games now, if I'm not mistaken.
John U. Bacon
Oh, it's 41-42. So basically 82-84 teams "qualify." If you're still standing, Rich, you're in.
Richard Helppie
Indeed, that's not that great for people up in East Lansing this year but, you know, better luck next year. The Eagles from Ypsilanti are going to play San Jose State.
John U. Bacon
Good for them. By the way, Creighton at EMU has done a phenomenal job. Winning eight games at EMU is not easy and through no fault of the school - obviously, very good school - but it's been the graveyard of coaches. Traditionally, many good coaches have gone there and failed, sadly. I don't know why a Power Five team has not picked him up, although he seems content at Eastern Michigan and maybe he should be.
Richard Helppie
In college ball we're talking about now the formation of what looks like some mega conferences. Whoever would have thought that we'd see UCLA and USC in the Big 10. Some of the other alignments that are going on out there - what's the rationale behind these mega conferences?
John U. Bacon
There's only one, Rich - money. And I will say, in the Big 10's defense and USC's and UCLA's, when they signed them to the Big 10...of course, now you've got 16 teams in the Big 10, so no matter its relevance to geography or math, for that matter, no one even tried to claim this is about the student athletes or about education or about anything else. They, to their credit, all admitted it's about one thing; it's the Benjamins and it's a TV deal, which is now about $100 million per Big 10 member. So that's why Northwestern at 1-11 is making more money from TV than Notre Dame is; that's there you have it right there, that was the only explanation for that. I've got mixed feelings about it - brain versus heart - the heart says, this is crazy. I love the Big 10, it had a geographic footprint to it [which] made sense. And even though the states of Minnesota and Iowa seem pretty far away, you look at a map and where the actual schools are, it's all pretty cohesive. Then of course, I thought Penn State was a good add, I think Nebraska was a good add: those are culturally in line, I think, with the Big 10, academically and otherwise. Then you add Rutgers and Maryland that makes very little sense. That's really a cash grab for cable TV dollars and this one makes even less sense. Of course, we know why; it's just money.
Richard Helppie
How is the money...is it because of the Big 10 network controlling content? So UCLA, USC can't get to that through network TV or through a similar PAC 10 TV, that they've got to join something that's already established; is that the economics behind this?
John U. Bacon
Partly, it's basically every conference has got its own TV package deal. So it's not just the Big 10 Network, although that's certainly driving it. In the Big 10's case, it's by far the most successful of the conference networks, not even close financially and ratings-wise and so on. It's basically this, that they've got Big 10 Network, they've got Fox that owns Big 10. They've got CBS and NBC all in line every football Saturday; Fox goes at noon, and then NBC and CBS. And that package - the appeal of these 14 teams - is far greater than the appeal of the SEC, even though competitively, the SEC has been far more successful this century - 22 years now - than the Big 10 has, but Big 10 has got a much bigger footprint. It has got many more alumni, many more fans. The three biggest fan bases, according to Nate Silver, who does the FiveThirtyEight project on politics, Ohio State at 3.2 million, Michigan at 2.9 million and Penn State at 2.6 million. So right there are your big three. And that's why Michigan-Ohio State game doubled the best ratings for any other game this season. USC and UCLA want a part of that. So the heart says this is a drag, and I want them in the Pac 12 - and it's going to kill the PAC 12 - PAC 12 is a shell now. Washington and Oregon would love to join the Big 10, they're coming begging, basically. But the brain says, look, those two schools are about to spin off somewhere and if it's not the Big 10, it's going to be the SEC, which will make it almost completely dominant with Texas and Oklahoma already joining.
Richard Helppie
This is more than about football. I mean, we're talking golf, gymnastics, (John U. Bacon: That's it.) swimming and diving. I think about those kids - those student athletes - that may have to traverse three time zones and they're not going on a charter plane, like the football team, they are going to go on a commercial flight and trying to make their way. A kid going from Los Angeles to State College, Pennsylvania; that's quite a commute to then perform athletically and then get back and continue your education. It just seems like the money is going to destroy the whole essence of what college athletics is supposed to be or was.
John U. Bacon
It's not going to help, as far as that goes. And you hit the nail on the head, very few are talking about this. The Big 10 sponsors more sports than, I think, just about any conference out there. They average around 23 or 24. The SEC average is around 17 sports per school. Michigan, Ohio State, and Penn State lead the pack. They all have around 30 varsity programs and those all cost a few million dollars each, no matter what you're doing. Then like you said, the travel. Football actually always has the least travel of any sport in college. So when people talk about travel, it's not football; you've got 12 games, and if you're Michigan or Ohio State, seven or eight are going to be at home. It's only traveling to four or five; you leave on a Friday, you come back on a Saturday night. You've got one night away. It's not much and it's on the weekends. Like I said, it's women's cross country, it's softball, it's men's baseball, it's these sports that are now going to be stretched from Rutgers - basically New York - to LA. That's going to be a very, very difficult schedule going up but I can assure you that was not a factor here.
Richard Helppie
I wish they would take some lessons from professional sports. The NHL expanded, and then they finally had to re-align because we had, by way of example, a team I'm very familiar with - the Detroit Red Wings - in the Western Conference. The scuttlebutt was that the Western Conference teams wanted to Red Wings there, because that was about the only time they filled the building. And the Eastern Conference wanted the Red Wings there because they didn't want the competition when the Wings were at their pinnacle. But the travel, particularly during the playoffs, the amount of miles that that team would travel and the late night games that, basically, were difficult for their fan base to watch. I just see the Big 10 running right into that again. I mean, if Michigan plays USC at night in California, kickoff's going to be 10:30-11 o'clock at night Eastern. And similarly, they're going to kick off at 9 am (PT) if they're playing in Ann Arbor and it just seems like people need to think this through.
John U. Bacon
Too late. [Laughter.] Too late for that, it's already been...the checks have all cleared, so this is done. But that was not thought through and again, on a football side, not that hard. You hit the nail on the head also with the NHL. People don't realize this who not that familiar with the travel of sports. Major League Baseball has got almost exactly twice as many games as the NBA and the NHL. But travel in the Major League is much easier than in the NHL and the NBA because you're in Chicago for three, four or five games. You're in New York for three or four games. You set up shop for a while, two or three trips and you come back. You're not hopping on a plane nearly as often. You're not changing time zones nearly as often. That's what they say is the killer. Whenever I talk to pro athletes and I say what does the average fan not get? They always say travel. So basketball and hockey have it the worst and what I'll say about this too, Rich, I'm the only one - I swear to God - that I know of who has been beating this drum for the Red Wings. Man, for all the success they had for those 24 years in the playoffs, I tell you, about the rules changes, the salary caps, and the on-ice rules and so on, about interference and so on; all that changed dramatically, they still kept doing it. It's quite an amazing run but no one talked about the travel. And for the Wings, they had, by far, the worst travel even though other teams were more western than they were - they were the ones in the west all these years - that added tons of wear and tear. A two game schedule, plus, as you say, three rounds of the playoffs in San Jose or Edmonton or LA or wherever you're going to be. That is very wearing and they held up extremely well. Asking that of a 25 year old millionaire is one thing, asking that of a 19 year old women's softball pitcher strikes me as another.
Richard Helppie
That's the other thing in college sports, that a lot of the recruiting for all the sports, whether it's softball, hockey, or football, one of the appeals that the coaches could make, and the universities could make, is look, if you come play here, your family is going to be able to see you play. If you go to that distant school on the other coast, your family can't come out to see you play. That seems to be obviated, but again, it's using those athletes. I'm just wondering if that eventually this is just going to be another pro league, and maybe even separate from the universities.
John U. Bacon
A few good points there, as well. One guy discovered, writing a previous book, "Fourth and Long: The Fight for the Soul of College Football," it came out in 2013, about Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame - the Midwest, basically - is that it was still a predominantly regional sport ten years ago, that people from the coal mines and the steel mills of Pennsylvania, usually want to play for Pitt or Penn State, maybe the Buckeyes. They don't want to go that far because families are families and that's where you are, with the teams you grew up watching. Unlike the NFL, or pro sports in general, when you're a hotshot college athlete, they draft you, and you've got to go wherever they tell you to go. The high school senior actually has the power and he or she can pick their school, so they tend to. Two thirds of the players on your team still probably come from within two or three [nearby] states. This is going to question that. I don't think it's going to change it completely, because families are still families. But you also mentioned too, when you have 16 teams in your league, how are you going to do it? Maybe just call it east and west again. But the whole point of these TV packages, they want USC and UCLA to play Michigan and Ohio State and Penn State and Michigan State. Well, if you're going to do that, then they're goes the travel thing, and how you're going to take care of Iowa and Illinois, Indiana schools like this. So that's going to be a question there. And how many games can you play? It's football. So you have two divisions of eight and what do you then have - you basically have two divisions, not a league, you have two conferences essentially, so there are practical matters here. When Michigan played Purdue over the weekend in the Big 10 title game, that was the second time in a decade Michigan played Purdue, which shows you how this is really kind of not working on some level.
Richard Helppie
The rivalries are what it used to be about. And that kind of takes us into this next thing, this college football playoff, which arguably seems to be working for teams; it's a long season for those young players. And now, I guess, starting in the 2024 season, there's going to be a 12 team playoff. Do you know how is that designed to work? When does it start? What's it going to do to bowl season? It seems like a lot of teams, it's going to be 12, it's going to end up being 16. Is the whole season going to be a tournament?
John U. Bacon
Well, I recall when they first said two they said no, no we'll never do four. Then they got four, no, no, we'll never do eight or whatever else and they're lying every time. So you're dead right that when they say 12, get ready for 16 because that's coming next, because oh, that's going to solve it. One of the arguments is so stupid I can't stand it, that well, the fifth ranked team is really good and they've got a complaint. Okay, well, now it's going to be the 13th ranked team. I mean, I'm sorry, NCAA basketball, March Madness, they've had 64 teams for a long time. The 65th team got screwed so they added it to 68. And now the 69th team complains. I'm pretty sure that the 69th team is not going to win a national title. Sorry, you're not good enough to complain about this, says me. But anyway, so you asked me the question there, how it works is the bottom eight of the 12 teams play each other, the higher team gets home field. So northern teams finally get a break after all these years of bowl games in the south. Then the winners of those games play the top four teams and then they'll do it in bowl sites. You'll have eight games then, they'll do it in bowl sites of course - sorry, four teams, sorry, four games. They'll do bowls for those three rounds, basically, and call it...the way they're doing it now. Michigan's going to go to the Fiesta Bowl, but it's really a semi-final; call it both. So the bowls will get their money as usual. And by the way, 14 of these bowls are owned - owned - and operated by ESPN. So that's a vertical monopoly right there, and God bless ESPN, but that's why this all happens. That's why there's nobody in the stands but they're still making millions.
Richard Helppie
A lot of these bowl games, you don't want to pan the stands. Let's just say that a northern team, Michigan State, gets in as the 12th team - well actually wouldn't be the 12th, they'd be ranked lower - but if they were in that group of 12, and ranked higher, someone may have to go into East Lansing to play them in December.
John U. Bacon
That part I love, by the way, Rich. [Laughter.]
Richard Helppie
Well, I always liked those games at Lambeau Field, in the comfort in my living room where it was warm.
John U. Bacon
And you see the air come out almost like ice cream, it's that thick. There's a reason why the Dallas Cowboys did not win the Ice Bowl and Green Bay Packers did. So they've avoided this for over 100 years, of course, playing any northern games in December or January. That part is one sizable silver lining for me, Rich, those games; I want USC come on into the Horseshoe in December, alright, so I want to see some of those games. That'd be great.
Richard Helppie
Well, I don't know if people around the country understand that in many of those stadiums those are metal benches. If you've never had the opportunity to sit on a metal bench (John U. Bacon: I know where you're going here.) in the upper midwest in December, you won't forget it. Here's the clue: base layers, lots of layers, waterproof on the outside, hand warmers and foot warmers you get from any hunting store, to stay warm. People are going to tell you, oh just drink whiskey or whatever, don't do that because - there's a long list of reasons - but among them you're going have to get rid of the whiskey sometime; it's a process when you're that well-dressed.
John U. Bacon
It is a process and of course, it can also diminish your ability to fight off the cold even though it feels good in the short run. I've experienced both.
Richard Helppie
Indeed. We're experienced northern men here. So John, right now we've got a great bowl season coming up. We've got TCU playing Michigan out in the Fiesta Bowl. Ohio State getting back in by virtue of USC losing. I'm not sure what second prize is but they get to play the Georgia Bulldogs, doesn't seem like that great of a day ahead. [Laughter.]
John U. Bacon
Be careful what you wish for I guess, right.
Richard Helppie
What is your look at those games, and then are there any other interesting bowl games that you think people ought to be paying attention to?
John U. Bacon
Sure, of course. First of all, they got the right four teams. There's very little controversy this time around, despite the last minute juggling, and two out of three teams in line for this lost their conference game, including TCU. USC did. Michigan won theirs, Georgia won theirs. I think they got it right. I think they got the order right. There are not too many debates about this. And I think, Ohio State...look, Michigan beat Ohio State - on paper they shouldn't have. Ohio State has got 14 five star players - former recruits that is - on their team. Michigan has three. Now they happen to be JJ McCarthy and Donovan Edwards, people you need to carry the weight. But on paper, Ohio State should have blown them out, the point being that they've got plenty of talent. They got out-coached that day, is what I saw. In a way I was not fully expecting it to be that dramatic, certainly. So Ryan Day's got a month to figure out Georgia, I would not be surprised if that is a serious game. Michigan is playing its second best opponent of the season in TCU, the best being Ohio State. But TCU has got four or five future - at least, probably ten - future NFL-ers, including quarterback, a Heisman Trophy finalist. It'll be challenging. Michigan is favored by more than I would expect, like seven or eight. They're on a roll right now but that, I think, will be a decent game as well. If it ends up being Michigan and Georgia - which is what they're picking, anyway - Michigan already saw them last year, they won't be as flabbergasted as they were the year before. There's still a talent gap there between Georgia and Michigan. Michigan will be the underdogs, rightly, that's the game that happens. But I think that game is now within reaching distance in a way it was not a year ago, kind of the way Ohio State is now in range from Michigan and the way they were not for almost 20 years.
Richard Helppie
Where I would agree with you is that they've got the right four teams in there. Michigan, I think it's going to have their hands full with TCU. (John U. Bacon: I agree.) TCU is a tough team, they've traditionally risen to the occasion. They're a great second half team. The overtime, maybe they shouldn't have gone for the touchdown and then taken the three, who knows, but they're there and they're a tough team. I think they're going to have their hands full. I don't think Georgia is going to have any problem with Ohio State. And I believe, a year ago in '21, Ohio State had more talented team but Michigan was the better team on the field that day. But this year, I think Michigan's game plan was better, Michigan's athletes were better. And I don't know that anyone's ever back-tested the success of five star recruits versus a three star, if you know, I'd love to hear about it because an athlete signing a letter of intent at 17 might be a five star, but somebody else may be developing still and at 22 they're a much better player. It happens every day.
John U. Bacon
Well, you're exactly right. That's the growth model, which I certainly believe in educationally as well as athletically and in the corporate world as well. It's not where you started, it's where you end up. And in football, especially, look, these are 17 year old kids you are recruiting, 18 maybe. And how long have they played contact football three, four or five years, in many cases. You're not dealing with a lot of data and as Bo (Schembechler) once said, he said, hey, you beat up Catholic Central, Brother Rice, that's great, they're not on my schedule. We're running the Buckeyes and the Spartans this year so you're going to find those games a little different. And I think that's exactly what happens, you're growing in your body; they're still developing in a way they're not in the NFL. The NFL is what you are, is what you are, as a rule, pretty close to it, anyway. These guys still grow so much and develop so much, literally and figuratively, that development matters. And by the way, Coach Herbert, Michigan's strength and conditioning coach, that guy has a raise coming, I think, because they've done phenomenally well out there. They pushed around the Buckeyes both years, which I was not expecting. It matters dramatically this year, of course, they moved it faster, but nonetheless. Then you'll get the coaching. Ohio State; I don't know anyone playing better than Donovan Edwards was, and JJ McCarthy, it wasn't lights out. He made all the passes he had to make and looked as good as Stroud did - he's a hell of a quarterback, there's no question.
Richard Helppie
I think JJ McCarthy does a lot better when he's under pressure and on the run, where his athleticism takes over, versus trying to contain him in the system. He's just such a great athlete, just let him be a little bit more free. And of course, it happens in sports but you sure hate to see it happen to young man like Blake Corum not getting the opportunity to compete because of an injury.
John U. Bacon
On top of that, if Blake Corum was healthy for Illinois, and especially for Ohio State, those are his runs that Donovan was gobbling up, and no knock on Donovan Edwards because he made the most out of those things. It's hard to imagine that Blake Corum would not have gotten that on those two big ones as well as some earlier ones. It cost him the Heisman. I think he would have won it based on the play of the USC quarterback and CJ Stroud at Ohio State - so, Caleb (Williams) I'm talking about at USC. Both laid eggs, basically, when it mattered most and Corum would not have. But it's a brutal game, sad to say, and that happens. I'm at least glad these days [that] these players have got insurance, they've already made some money. It's not what they're going to make in the NFL; it's not a complete trade there but it's not a zero [that] you would have gotten five years ago.
Richard Helppie
John, as we end our time here together - I'll take as much of your time as you're willing to give me today - but we've talked a lot about our Midwest, we've talked about teams that we're very fond of; as you look around the bowl schedule, what do you see out there that's interesting this season? And then the second thing I'd ask you is, if you had to pull out the crystal ball and say, what does college sports and just college football in particular, look like five, ten years down the road? Are you alarmed or are you thinking we're heading on a good path? So current ball games and then where are we going.
John U. Bacon
Sure. The bowl games of course, the big four teams we already talked about. I'll be watching those. Penn State playing the Utah Utes in the Rose Bowl, it's very intriguing to me, that one looks like fun. Quite a few Big 10 teams, naturally, qualified for the bowls this year. Honestly, in the Big 10's case, the question is, can the west redeem itself, because the west has never been the equal of the east since they divided that eight years ago and it's never been worse than this year. Now, the good news for them is we got Matt Rhule going into Nebraska, you've got Luke Fickell going to Wisconsin - overnight, the west just got a whole lot better. You throw in USC and UCLA and the west becomes competitive. But I'm always watching the Big 10 teams for these things. Those, to me, are the most fun bowls.
Richard Helppie
Alabama's always fun to watch. They've got a chip on their shoulder right now. I just like to watch good competitive games and see some of the creativity.
John U. Bacon
What I want to see is an exciting fourth quarter, that's what I want to see as a rule. You asked me about the future of football, by the way, let me answer that one. I've been banging the warning drum for ten years and of course, I don't have the voice that the NCAA listens to, but no, the more they make it - each step we're talking about here today, Rich - each step makes college ball closer and closer to the NFL. And the closer you get to it the poorer the comparison is. March Madness does not compete with the NBA Finals, that's very smart not to. Only six games you've got to win, they're all one game series, it's not game seven and all that. And now college football is getting closer and closer to the NFL which will diminish the regular season; it already has. It'll diminish rivalries, and no sport, I think, depends more intently on rivalries than college football does. One of the great reasons is you get one shot at your opponent, your rival, every year, that's it. You have to live with the results and either get a year of peace or a year of misery and no other sport features that, so that's been diminished now as well. I think that the NIL (Name, Image, Likeness) packages...look, I cannot defend the NCAA the way it was - no way - $10 million coaches and guys who can't make five bucks for signing their names; that's pretty insane. But this NIL is not going to solve the problems they are out to solve. You still have the inherent problem in both the NBA and the NFL; that you don't have viable minor leagues - the only two sports in the world that don't have viable minor leagues - on your way up. Baseball has it, hockey has it for more than a century. So if you don't want to be a student, and you don't think a scholarship is worth it, and you want to get paid, then go right ahead. Still in the NCAA in football and basketball you don't have that. So I think that's going to be a problem going forward. We'll see where where it lands. But I'm already seeing growing disinterest amongst fans as far as attendance goes. As far as ratings go, they've gone down bit by bit, year by year. Look, when I was a kid in the 70s, my parents called it the $5 babysitter: two bucks got me into a Michigan game, one buck for a hot dog, one buck for a Coke, some friends of mine got a little plastic football, I, of course, got the program that's how I got the geek lens of writing books about this stuff. Five bucks and I saw the band, I saw them touch the banner, I saw all that stuff and I think that's how I got sucked into this. I go back to games at Michigan - or anywhere else these days, it's not just Michigan's problem - and I don't see almost any kids, you see clients, because the day cost 500 bucks; it costs a day at Disneyland, basically. If that's not fixed sooner rather than later, I don't know who's going to these games in 20 or 30 years.
Richard Helppie
I do see incentives for the students and the student section is robust. So that is being carved out. But it gets to the point where if it's all about the tournament and who's going to qualify and who's going to get in, then there's a team in Connecticut that people say, I'm alum of of UConn and I want to see them do well and play their rivals and such, but there's no sense watching them because they're not going to be one of the 12. They're not going to the tournament. That's the thing we've gotten away from. It used to be you played your rivals, select teams got to go to a bowl game, the kids got a day on the beach and a warm weather game. Maybe it wasn't quite the same thing as playing during the regular season but it was a great experience. Then everybody could just talk about which team was better and my team could have beat yours and so forth. If we strip all of that out of that, all we've got is another pro league. If I'm looking at college football, why do I want to tie how long I get to keep a player based on the so-called academic eligibility, if I can pay that player; maybe we'll just keep him around as long as he's helping us win football games. Now you've got a head to head competition with the NFL.
John U. Bacon
Exactly, I mean, you almost have it now, where, are you going to play the bowl game or not? Well, those players get paid extra now for bowl games; the big shots at Alabama and so on, to keep them one step away from NFL and you're going to have it where you get paid to come back. It's already kind of happening now, basically. So it's weird, it's getting more and more cynical. Lily Tomlin, the great comedianne from Detroit, said, no matter how cynical you get, you just can't keep up. [Laughter.] That's kind of true. But nonetheless, I'll say this, for all the "get off my lawn" talk from yours truly, I certainly will be watching all these games in December, I admit.
Richard Helppie
Absolutely. I will be there spending quality time with my remote control during the entire bowl season.
John U. Bacon
Got a bond, Rich, you got a bond.
Richard Helppie
Indeed. So it's fun, it's been fun, I hope it stays fun. John, any closing comments or anything that you'd like to chat about that we didn't cover today?
John U. Bacon
Not at all. You can find me at LetThemLeadByBacon.com, that's my podcast and that's where we sell that book as well, about coaching high school hockey, which is being turned into a screenplay. So we'll see about that.
Richard Helppie
Great, and the name of your most current book so our audience can obtain that.
John U. Bacon
Sure. This one, mainly, "Let Them Lead: Unexpected Lessons in Leadership from Americaís Worst High School Hockey Team." It's been featured on Good Morning America, New York Times, folks like that, and Mary Barra at General Motors - God bless her - the CEO, called it one of the best books that she's read. So check it out.
Richard Helppie
I understand that she read the book but her hockey career was limited because she couldn't go to her left that well, and didn't have a heavy enough shot.
John U. Bacon
Yes, there you go.
Richard Helppie
This is Richard Helppie on The Common Bridge with this special holiday and college bowl season episode with John U. Bacon, please look him up. He's got an extensive background, always got great insight and words of wisdom. Wishing you all a Happy New Year, this is your host, Rich Helppie, signing off on The Common Bridge.
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