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Thanks!
Richard Helppie
Hello, welcome to The Common Bridge. I'm your host, Rich Helppie. We have an extraordinarily great guest today, all the way from Kosovo. Let's welcome the Head of Rule of Law & Legal Section, Human Rights at the EU Special Representative in Kosovo, Mr. Jarmo Feliks Helppikangas. Jarmo, it's very good to see you.
Jarmo Helppikangas
Very good to see you too, Rich.
Richard Helppie
Your background and your skill set, I understand that you were a police officer in Finland, a police chief in Finland, and that you also have a law degree. That sounds like great preparation for this role.
Jarmo Helppikangas
Yes, indeed, it was. Because what was initially looked for in those missions, it was like to have something [sic] who understands about policing, but knows also about prosecution and to see that the policing [is] like a complete package, as it is and how we understand it. For example, criminal investigations without the involvement of the prosecution is just one part of that. It is much operational, technical, scientific method but how to use all that information in a trial. That's the other side of the story. Then you go for the prosecution. So, they were looking for some legal advisors there and I looked at that, and I compared my CV and I said this is mine. So it happened that we were selected there, a few of us. There were actually four Finnish prosecutors at the time, starting that first mission there. And yes, after five years there, I then finished my work there - that work there, of course, is not yet done.
Richard Helppie
I see. The challenge has to be you started with no justice system, no effective policing force, with ethnic war. And now the country is populated by Albanians and Serbians with a terrible history between them. Is one of the big challenges having a police system and a prosecution system that both the Albanians and the Serbians will support?
Jarmo Helppikangas
This is indeed a challenge because to have the trust after all the mistrust, it is a challenge and it is still a challenge. That challenge has not disappeared, anywhere. Yes, there is still like...I'm still back into history, I'm starting the CSDP mission here, but to jump from here to where we are now, maybe to cut [a] long story a bit shorter, it is at some point...because we were like about 3000, a bit less than 3000 as a mission with all these people around, it was a very, very big mission and it had executive authorities here. So our judges, police, prosecutors, they were doing actually, the work of these executive authorities. Now since 2018, we still have the same mission here, but then we [have] the monitoring, advisory role and so forth and it is one part of the EU presence here. Now going to where we stand - or where I sit - it is a different story again, because there are two - you introduced me as the EU Commission. Now, EU is here with two different, separate segments and one of them is the EUSR. It is the European Union Special Representative in Kosovo. There are a few EUSRs around the world, not so many. But they are kind of a more flexible tool for the EU to help in the countries in this post war, post crisis environment. And it is kind of a transitional status from the CSD missions that were purely crisis management to something that is like with the political assistance, helping to approximate the legislation with the EU legislation and all that. So we are kind of one step further. Next step would be probably that if Kosovo gets the candidate status to get in the EU, then the EU office, currently called “office” - and I explain in a moment why - they will then take over if this process goes to having candidate status. The similar kind of procedure was going on in Bosnia, they are now a candidate, they still have a little bit of EUSR there, but at some point, EUSR will disappear and then the EU delegation will continue with it. Now why Bosnia is called "delegation" and Kosovo is called "office," it is just a story about the EU. Because the EU is not one state, it is many states and of course the states need to act in consensus and they need to agree on things. What the EU does not do, EU does not recognize states; the EU member states, one by one, they recognize states. And currently EU is in a status regarding Kosovo; that there are five states that do not recognize [it] and then you have the 22 who do. That's why [a] delegation does not exist here, but we have the office because there is a fine tuned distinction between these two.
Richard Helppie
I understand that the borders between Serbia and Kosovo might be part of a negotiation, where more ethnic Serbian areas might become part of Serbia again and more ethnic Albanian parts might become part of Kosovo. Did I understand that correctly?
Jarmo Helppikangas
There has been a time that this kind of idea have been [sic] floating up in the air, there is no clear idea yet or let's say clear, common understanding [of] how these things should go ahead. And I remember that in the period when Donald Trump was the president, this idea was more on the table, this border demarcation or kind of making the border in between in a different way and following the ethnic lines. But this has not been the initial EU idea on this. That's why now we go actually back to one other Finn, (chuckle) just to mention what happened back in the time. You remember probably our former president Martti Ahtisaari, he was a special envoy from the UN and he was here to try to make a proposal for the transition. It was called comprehensive proposal and it is still here. It used to be also in the constitution of Kosovo [for] quite some time until they removed it from there. The principles and many, many of the laws are still in line with that idea. Back in 2007 we were here as an international community supporting Kosovo to align their legislation. There were like about 42 laws, starting from constitution, Police law, law on civil registry, you just name it, all the essentials for running a state. And they were all based on the proposal of former President Martti Ahtisaari. The initial idea was that the UN would accept it, but for the reasons related to world politics, it never happened.
Richard Helppie
It must be very difficult to start from scratch, start from the beginning where there's nothing, a blank sheet of paper, with two predominant ethnicities that have come and gone from their region depending on what was happening politically, and then try to engage the rule of law. So when you were a police officer and a police chief in Finland, there was an understanding of what the law was and what the rights were of defendants and what the integrity of the court system was. How does that compare with what you found in Kosovo and what you're trying to achieve in Kosovo?
Jarmo Helppikangas
Well, when I came here, of course, there was already a quite advanced system in place and that was developed with the interim administration of the United Nations mission here, UNMIK. So there were criminal codes, criminal procedure codes, and all the legislation that was promulgated, approved by, it was happening through this United Nations administration. This was the applicable law here until 2008, 17 of February when the independence was declared. It was not a - how to say – “not a regulated situation”. Also, if you think about the laws in former Yugoslavia, there were many laws that were actually not discriminative, they were quite advanced, if you look at their criminal procedure code, criminal code, all that. But there has [sic] been periods of time where the legislation has been changed and not always bearing in mind that there are many ethnicities, many, many different people in living in a country that doesn't anymore exist. Let's say, wild west it was not, but there was a misuse of such systems at times.
Richard Helppie
We have American journalists in Russia today that have been sent to prison for a long time. We have people in the United States of America that believe justice is not administered evenly. What have you been able to do to get all of the different groups in Kosovo to agree that there is a fair justice system?
Jarmo Helppikangas
There was a period where the parties managed to agree on something called dialogue between the parties. [In] Belgrade they call it dialogue between Belgrade and Pristina and in Kosovo, it is called something like the dialogue between the Republic of Kosovo and Republic of Serbia. And in this dialogue they, at some point, agreed on, for example, how the policing will be done in the area that is with the Serb majority, how the justice will be delivered there, how the prosecution is organized there, what would be the composition of courts to ensure that both parties would trust on the justice they receive.
Richard Helppie
Do ethnic Albanians, if they're appearing before an ethnic Serbian judge, do they believe they'll be treated fairly?
Jarmo Helppikangas
They mistrust, I would think, I'm not following it every day but we, of course, as an EU family, we follow the trials and all that. Mistrust is there and there are elements, of course that are kind of feeding it. Where I wanted to go with this recently, it was like - I'm not remembering the date, but more than one year ago - at some point, all the Serbs, they resigned from their positions as judges, police, prosecution, municipal authorities, municipal mayors, and they kind of stopped the already created system where this kind of justice existed. They could go and speak with their own Serbian speaking police, for example, to ask for help. They just stepped out. And this is something that from [the] outside world...and it was quite openly done, because they went to meet first with President Vučić in Belgrade and after a few months, it happened just like that. They said, now, well, everybody will leave at the same time. Now, how does it work now? It is a bit of a question mark, of course, because they kind of destroyed the system that was made for the addressing the needs of non-majorities. On the other hand, the authorities in Kosovo - and I don't know how much I can actually talk about that - but they are actively trying to make the rule of law, the policing, the court to happen throughout Kosovo and that would include that corner of Kosovo which is populated by the Serbs as a majority.
Richard Helppie
I see. You mentioned also, or it's been mentioned, the advancement of human rights. What types of things have been challenges and what is your work doing about getting better human rights?
Jarmo Helppikangas
Well, first and foremost, it is of course about awareness. Because people should understand what are their rights, and how they can get to their rights, how the justice system works and how they can get, for example, their property rights back or...okay, property rights is probably a good and also painful example on this because of course, after the war, things are a bit different than they used to be. Not to say the civilian population is very rarely guilty for all the bad changes that happened, but in any case, people need to live somewhere and all that and to restore the property rights in this kind of situation it is a challenge. UNMIK, there was a house and property commission, for example, who were deciding over cases where somebody's property was taken by the other ethnicity; and it works both ways, Serbs in Albanian properties, Albanians in Serb properties. There were like tens of thousands of this kind of case going on and many of them were restored. But the tendency was, of course, that if somebody's property was returned to the rightful owner, it was re-occupied and the situation continued. So many of these situations haven't [been resolved], but let's say already, that UN time they tried to deal with this. And there were institutions established by UN and they were staffed by international judges and all that, in an attempt to try to restore it. But when the independence came, and all that, it was because other institutions took over on that, and this is the work they are doing, and this is the work that we are trying to promote them to do equally. And then taking into consideration not only the property rights, but also the rights of the people who were occupying it and [that] they are not thrown in the streets but their rights are also taken care of. That the municipality, social authorities or whatever is needed, would then take care; that people would not be treated too harshly. But as for the human rights, somebody's right is somebody else's obligation and this needs to be, of course, addressed. We are still part of this kind of mechanism to ensure that it is like done in a way that both parties would feel equally treated and would trust the justice. But there is one thing which I still did not mention a lot but maybe it's good to mention in this context because it influences everything. It is when we have two states, the one who says this is all mine, and the one who says we are independent and don't come here to tell us how to do; there is a kind of dilemma.
Richard Helppie
We're not recognizing them as an independent country.[A1] Then, property rights seem to be the foundation of freedom and we have people here challenging it in our political system in the United States. We have leading figures saying they need to redistribute things and make sure everybody starts with the same amount; it means taking it away from somebody. My understanding of history, I don't think that's ever worked and certainly has never worked without bloodshed and destruction of the society. Jarmo, you also mentioned about advancing gender equality, I know nothing at all about the background of gender inequality. So what have you discovered and what has your work done in terms of pursuing gender equality?
Jarmo Helppikangas
Yes, this is something that [I] can probably say without any hesitation, that it is not something that we can do with one big deed, we do something very good and everything changes. Because this is all about people's minds, and how they are actually growing up to be adults, I know that. I personally sometimes got a bit of trouble seeing where is the problem because I come from a country where you know, the father made the food and cleaned when need be and washed the laundry when need be and there was no difference between the man or the woman because both had the same responsibilities. But they're still present here and what we do is, of course, we try again and we speak about awareness. We try to increase the awareness of the rights of both.
Richard Helppie
And maybe you need to teach them all to speak Finnish because Finnish does not have any gender specific pronouns, there is no such thing in the language, [chuckling] and it takes a minute to get used to it. I speak no Finn; "Hyvää päivää," that's it, "Kiitos." Very interesting and that's interesting that you're coming from a country that has been at the forefront of women in leadership positions and in equality and equal status - that sounded like "inequality" when I said it, but women with equal status - of course, Finland is the home to the best looking, most intelligent and most clever people on the planet. That's my view anyway. [Laughter.]
Jarmo Helppikangas
We say it with the Finnish words, yes, we have to, a little bit, lift our own tail. (Chuckle.)
Richard Helppie
Indeed. Jarmo, one of the things I understand is finding work for those people that have left Kosovo, they've gone elsewhere, mostly in the European Union. They'd like to come home, if there's work. What's the economy like and are things getting better or worse or staying the same?
Jarmo Helppikangas
Well, only recently we have noticed here is that the price level definitely is going up, whereas the pay level, the salary level, is not doing the same. And of course, it causes people troubles. We understand that everywhere, little bit the prices have gone [up] because of all the crises that we have and the war in Ukraine and all that. But here, it is even more visible and knowing that the average salaries here are like very far away from what they are, for example, in Finland. You see that people are suffering on this, it is for sure a reality. On the other hand, there is a threat recently a number...that only in Germany, they have like about 500,000 Kosovars living there and there is really a big proportion of the people from here, they are working abroad. They have been working there like quite some time. All the time that I have been here...and I remember 2008, for example, I was once driving from Montenegro to Kosovo and it was July. And in July, there are like long queues of cars, German, Italian, Switzerland, you just name it, fairly [inaudible] and it was the first summer after the declaration of independence. The police was [sic] giving tickets on the border, which said these are the traffic rules in Kosovo and you better obey them; they were driving like in euphoria, nobody was speeding, they were just enjoying. Now this is the independent Kosovo, it was nice. But what I want to say with this is not only that, but also that there has always been diaspora and they have always been working abroad. They have always supported their families here so that the diaspora has been kind of good support for the economy here. There are some calculations, I don't remember those numbers and all that but it's quite some support. And if I look around here, we are living in a block of flats. And when I first came here, there was like green fields around. Now after about eight years, all around, you don't see green fields, you'll see just blocks of flats. And guess what this block of flats, they are not lived in all year around. But now for example, July, August, windows [are] open and there are actually people in there. (Richard Helppie: Nice.) And these are people who work abroad and they of course come here, their home, this is their home. Like the Finns at the time, the Finns that were working in Sweden, there were about half a million of them at some point. Well, each summer they came with their rented Volvos and Saabs and then they populate it, [chuckle] replacing it with their thing. But of course they wanted to come home, of course, always, I think the same, exactly the same in here.
Richard Helppie
Well, they must have confidence in the rule of law and property rights; when they come home that their flat will be available to them and someone hasn't moved in. So the work you're doing there is bringing about peace, it's bringing about order, and it's bringing about opportunity for the younger generations. We are at risk in our country, the United States, going in the opposite direction of not trusting the legal system, not respecting property rights. I don't know if it could ever be put back together again. Kosovo's population, 1.5 million, how difficult it is to establish a respected rule of law, respected property rights and opportunity for young people. The United States, we need to work on this and stop our partisan battles, and realize that we have a country that does have a rule of law, if we can keep it. But I digress. Jarmo, as we come to the end of our talk today, what would you like the audience of The Common Bridge to know from your position in Kosovo?
Jarmo Helppikangas
It's important to know that there is - if you look at the legal framework, the constitutional framework here - most of the things [that] we would expect to have there are in place; the legal system is there, the criminal code has been revised, like I think we are now in the third round of revising it, the criminal procedure code is done with and it is in line with the standards [of] what we have in [the] EU for the criminal procedure. Because Kosovo constitution recognizes - without Kosovo being a member of any of the conventions - Kosovo's constitution is recognized above its own laws, the human rights conventions, European Convention of Human Rights, the UN Convention, and even the Istanbul Convention, when we speak about the rights of women, and the actions against violence against women and all that. There are multiple actions here ongoing all the time to improve the system. And what we see happening here is that many things have gone better, sometimes we complain about things, but it's not because things are very bad. It is like we complain because we want it to be perfect. And we want the Kosovo to be very, very good in this classroom of the European family. And that's why you would like to see them even better than what they are now. But this doesn't mean that they are bad now; they have gone many steps since 2000 forward, and I believe that in general the environment has become better. The trust, like you said about the justice, there is fairly possibility for injustice in it, but it is getting better. There is plenty of work to do but it doesn't mean that [the situation] is very bad. It just means that there is plenty of work to do and there is no other country around here that could say that we are doing better. That's my view.
Richard Helppie
Well, thank you for that. We've been talking today with Jarmo Helppikangas, a police officer, police chief, prosecutor and council on rule of law, humen rights and gender, working in Kosovo to bring in the rule of law. I can't help but editorialize as we in the United States of America are now facing a very tense political situation, lots of rampant tribalism, partisanship, and we need to do more of the work like they're doing in Kosovo so that we might also form a more perfect union. This is your host Rich Helppie, signing off on The Common Bridge.
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Rebuilding Justice: Jarmo Feliks Helppikangas on Kosovo's Path to Unity and Law